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Author Topic: 1993 Cadillac Northstar  (Read 2944 times)
ambrynmc
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« on: April 02, 2010, 01:14:31 PM »

Hi Guys, I'm trying to find out if the 1280 is easy to configure for use on this engine. It has the GM DIS waste spark setup which has its own module that takes in signal from 2 crank sensors and 1 cam sensor and I believe the ECU also inputs to it to control the advance. I'm told it's similar to the GM HEI. Can the 1280 be configured to talk to this DIS module? I will scan in the manual info tomorrow (it might make more sense).
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Nick_R
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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2010, 05:58:28 PM »

Hi Ambrynmc,

We aren't familiar with which engine that car has, is it 6 or 8 cyl?

Regardless of whether we can interface with the DIS, we need to know what the triggering waveforms look like. Do you know what the tooth pattern is? Is there a disc with 18 teeth then another disc with variable width teeth? You mentioned a cam sensor as well.

With this information we could implement triggering on the 1280. Then we have two options.
1) Run coils directly with igniters
2) Keep the DIS, but we would need a full description of the waveforms going in and out of that module.

I assume you are in the US. Which state?

Best Regards,
-Nick (Adaptronic)
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ambrynmc
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2010, 05:51:27 AM »

Hi Nick,

This is a overhead cam V-8. Here is the info from the manual for the crank sensors and the cam sensor. The crank sensors are setup in a strange way. I was told they did it so they could sync everything quicker.

I'm located in California, US

* Page1.pdf (61.23 KB - downloaded 183 times.)
* page2.pdf (72.79 KB - downloaded 172 times.)
* Page3.pdf (103.46 KB - downloaded 191 times.)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 01:56:25 PM by ambrynmc » Logged
ambrynmc
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2010, 01:50:31 PM »

Here some more info for the control of the module:

IGN REF HI– (typically 3X on an L4 or V6, 4X on V-8) This is a digital input from the ignition control module to the PCM and based on the VR sensor (DIS) or Hall effect (C3I) sensor inputs to the ignition module. The PCM uses this signal to calculate engine RPM and crankshaft position. The PCM compares pulses on this circuit to any that are on the Reference Low circuit, ignoring any pulses that appear on both (passive filtering).
The PCM also uses the IGN REF pulses initiate injector triggering. In MPFI startup there will be 1 batch fire of all injectors every trailing edge of reference (ie HI to LO transition) but once running (400+ rpm) the injectors will only be triggered once every engine revolution (2 per 4 stroke cycle). If the V6 engine is equipped with SFI, once above 400 rpm, a single injector will be triggered every 120 degrees of crankshaft, in firing order.

BYPASS- This is a PCM output to the IGN Module. During cranking the PCM allows the ignition control module to keep the spark advance at a default/base (typically 5-10° BTDC) this is called BYPASS MODE. During BYPASS MODE the PCM applies 0Volts on the bypass circuit. Once above 400 rpm, the PCM commands the ignition module to allow the PCM to control the spark advance (aka EST or IC Mode).To accomplish this the PCM applies a 5V signal on the bypass circuit to trigger a transistorized switching circuit within the IGN module, connecting the EST circuit to the coil primary control FETs. If the PCM does not apply 5 volts to the bypass circuit, or if the ignition control module does not sense the 5 volts, the ignition control module will continue control spark timing (Bypass Mode) at or near 5-10° BTDC.

EST or IC- This is a digital output from the PCM to the Ign Module. In BYPASS mode this circuit is typically grounded through a fixed resistance within the IGN module. Once 5V has been correctly observed by the IGN control module it will “switch” to EST or IC mode and connect this signal to the primary FET circuits controlling each waste-spark coil pack. This signal is essentially identical on the IGN REF but is “delayed” in order to provide an appropriate amount of advance based on numerous inputs such as RPM and manifold pressure (MAP). ZERO delay will result in “base” timing (ie 5-10° BTDC) but by delaying the EST/IC signal the PCM can create the appropriate amount of ignition advance for the “next cylinder” coming up on it’s compression stroke.

IGN REF LO- This is a PCM input or more correctly a ground “offset” circuit connected between the PCM and IGN module. This is a low reference circuit for the digital RPM counter inside the PCM, but the wire is connected to engine ground only through the ignition control module. Although this circuit is electrically connected to the PCM, it is not connected to ground at the PCM. The PCM compares voltage pulses appearing on the IGN REF input to those on this REF LO circuit, ignoring pulses that appear on both, which is likely due to Electro Magnetic Interference (aka “noise”) thus allowing this interference to be filtered out and ignored.

TACH – This is a periodic voltage signal suitable for driving the oem tachometer (if equipped) The frequency applied will vary with the number of cylinders and/or gage requirements. The circuit usually includes various filtering devices (low/high band pass) in order to improve tachometer performance.

GND – This is the primary ground connection for various electronic circuits within the IGN module itself.. The IGN REF LO circuit of the PCM will also find it ground here. NOTE: Some C3I and DIS IGN module circuits may also require correct grounding through the module mounting.


Now I'm looking at the software for the 1280, I see that the Northstar firing order isn't in the pulldown (1-2-7-3-4-5-6-8) is there a way to modify that? I understand that it actually doesn't matter for waste spark since the pairing is the same, but maybe later after I figure out a way to use the stock sensors with coil-on-plugs.

Thanks
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rob_k
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2010, 04:52:06 PM »

Hi,

We've had a look at all the info you provided. There's alot to take in! It looks like quite a clever setup though.
We will have to discuss and confirm the possibilities, but my first impression is that it will be possible to run that setup with the e1280s.

Regarding the firing order, it is OK because you can just set the firing order to 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, and wire up the injectors based on the firing order (instead of setting the real firing order and wiring up the injectors based on the cylinder number, which is the default way of doing it with the e1280s, but not the only way).

Cheers
Rob
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NOTE: I used to be an Adaptronic Engineer. Although I no longer work there, I still love Adaptronic, so I like to visit this forum and help out occasionally!

SW20 MR2 turbo
Adaptronic e1280s ECU
353rwkw @ 31psi on E85
300rwkw @ 24psi on 98 RON
ambrynmc
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Posts: 8


« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2010, 05:41:48 AM »

Hi Rob,

How would I go about setting up the 1280 to communicate with the DIS module? Use the 24x signal as a crank trigger (360/24= 15 degrees)? But that leads me to my next questions, I'm not understanding how to setup any other crank/cam inputs. I only see the setup for a trigger in the Sekuku software in the window for "inputs and triggers", but it is nothing like the one described in the Wari manual. Are there plans to make a more complex triggering interface or am I just not seeing it?

Somewhere down the line I would like to use the scope to map out the stock crank triggers and then use them as my triggers, but I'm not seeing how to do that.
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rob_k
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« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2010, 10:42:14 AM »

Hi,

The e1280s help manual is not a pdf with the e1280s, it's a windows help file which can be accessed from within SEKUKU by pressing F1. It can also be accessed by double-clicking on it directly (it is the .chm file that is included in the SEKUKU folder when you download it from the website).
The triggering setup in the e1280s is different to the e420c, which is why the settings look different to WARI.

Here is a summary of how I understand that the stock ECU (PCM) and DIS module work together:

- The ICM receives the two crank sensor signals (A and B) and one cam position sensor signal (C), and creates the '4X REF HI' (D) and '24X CRANK' (G) signals for the PCM. The '24X CRANK' (G) signal is only used to tell the PCM if there is a fault (it will toggle repeatedly if there are no faulty crank/cam sensors detected by the ICM).
- The ICM also uses the cam position sensor (C) to create the '1/2X CAM HI' (H) signal for the PCM for sequential fuel injection.
- The PCM sends the 'IGNITION CONTROL' (F) signal to the ICM to determine the ignition timing.
- The PCM sends the 'BYPASS' (E) signal to the ICM, to determine if the ignition timing will be fixed by the ICM (below 400 RPM), or varied by the PCM (above 400 RPM).

We will still have to confirm the following, but I think this might be the way we would do it with the e1280s (if you want to retain the DIS module):

- The '4X REF HI' (D) wire would be used as a tooth-per-period crank trigger input to the e1280s (on Trigger Input 1).
- The '1/2X CAM HI' (H) wire would be used as a cam reference input to the e1280s (on Trigger Input 2).
- The 'IGNITION CONTROL' (F) wire would come from e1280s Ignition Output 1 (set up as a distributor-like output).
- The 'BYPASS' (E) signal could come from an e1280s Aux Output (set up with a 400 RPM threshold).

I think this should work with no firmware upgrades for the triggering code in the e1280s.

Cheers
Rob
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 10:45:38 AM by rob_k » Logged

NOTE: I used to be an Adaptronic Engineer. Although I no longer work there, I still love Adaptronic, so I like to visit this forum and help out occasionally!

SW20 MR2 turbo
Adaptronic e1280s ECU
353rwkw @ 31psi on E85
300rwkw @ 24psi on 98 RON
ambrynmc
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Posts: 8


« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2010, 02:40:29 PM »

OK, I see. The 24x signal is "dirty" and could fall out if one of the sensors isn't functioning. Is the 4x signal fine enough for good resolution?

I did look at the manual before and I see two places to setup the crank triggers: in the setup wizard and in the inputs/triggers area. So these are my guesses, let me know if I'm way off base...

So in setup wizard I'm looking at:
Basic: custom
Ignition/Injection: piston 8 cyl, 12345678, single distributor setup, dwell ?, offset unknown, 90 angle

And in Inputs & Triggers:

There is Angle increment, trigger mode, and reset 1,2, and 3 so
increment is 90 degrees (4x)
trigger mode is generic multitooth
reset 1 is none/swap 2 and 1
reset 2 is cam is missing tooth (on cam) = first half only
reset 3 is none


And anything beyond that is in firmware? So if I do eventually try to use the stock crank sensors as triggers that would require a firmware upgrade?

Sorry, I know this is a lot of questions...I'm just trying to verify the compatibility before I take the plunge.
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ambrynmc
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Posts: 8


« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2010, 09:56:40 AM »

Hi Rob,

Am I on the right track?

Thanks, Ambryn
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rob_k
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« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2010, 02:09:01 PM »

Is the 4x signal fine enough for good resolution?

It should be (many cars with distributors have only one trigger per period like this), and if I understand correctly I think the factory ECU must do it this way too.

So in setup wizard I'm looking at:
Basic: custom
Ignition/Injection: piston 8 cyl, 12345678, single distributor setup, dwell ?, offset unknown, 90 angle

That looks correct. We usually try 3ms dwell to start with, but sometimes it needs to be adjusted a little. The trigger offset is best determined with a timing light once the ECU is wired up.

There is Angle increment, trigger mode, and reset 1,2, and 3 so
increment is 90 degrees (4x)
trigger mode is generic multitooth
reset 1 is none/swap 2 and 1
reset 2 is cam is missing tooth (on cam) = first half only
reset 3 is none

We can finalise these settings closer to the time, but I think it will probably be something like:
- Angle Increment = 90 degrees
- Trigger mode = generic multitooth
- Reset 1 = none
- Reset 2 = 'cam (inc phasing) on next crank trig', or maybe 'first half only'
- Reset 3 = none

And anything beyond that is in firmware? So if I do eventually try to use the stock crank sensors as triggers that would require a firmware upgrade?

If you retain the existing setup with the crank/cam sensors and the DIS, I think it will work with the current firmware package. If not, we will add a new trigger mode for it if necessary, but I think it will be OK already.
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NOTE: I used to be an Adaptronic Engineer. Although I no longer work there, I still love Adaptronic, so I like to visit this forum and help out occasionally!

SW20 MR2 turbo
Adaptronic e1280s ECU
353rwkw @ 31psi on E85
300rwkw @ 24psi on 98 RON
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