Adaptronic
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Question: trigger wheel 36-1
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Author Topic: small block chevy 350 trigger wheel question  (Read 1923 times)
280z28
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« on: June 12, 2013, 06:38:40 AM »

So i began my first efi project on converting my blow through turbo small block in my 78 280z to a adaptronic 440 select efi system with vortech blower, anyhow i am almost ready to run, last thing i am trying to figure out is what orientation i should mount the missing tooth on my 36-1 wheel with the engine being at tdc or if it even matters because u noticed the timing can be offset in the software? i read the manual thoroughly but maybe i missed this step? correct me if im wrong need help.
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Andy
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« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2013, 09:36:04 AM »

Hello and welcome!

Please don't put it at TDC; it gets tricky then because the ECU uses the last tooth before TDC as the timing reference for RPM measurement and firing the injectors.

Can you put it so that the first tooth after the gap is lined up with the sensor at about 45 degrees BTDC? Because then you just put 45, 35, 25, 15, 5, 85, 75, 65, 55, -1 in the table.

Then ignition 1 will drive cylinder 1 - and the others will be in the firing order (in pairs obviously).

CAS1 = Ign, Inj, Ign crank, Reset on 1 missing tooth, Reset type = crank
CAS2 = Reset, type = first half only

Are you putting a sensor on the camshaft as well?

Thanks!
Andy
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280z28
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Posts: 6


« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2013, 02:53:38 PM »

thanks for the information, i should not have any problems locating it at 45 degrees, also i was not planning on running a camshaft sensor, do i really need it? i figured i would just run the car in batch fire, considering i cannot run sequential injection anyways. I suppose i can use some sort of a reference from the distributor but i read some information about it not being very effective due to having  slack in the timing chain\ gears between cam and distributor. (myth?) Honestly this is a bare bones setup on a mild 355 with a vortech v1 supercharger. I will not be using 90 % of the ecu's features to begin with. Also one more question, i was thinking about the wiring i did on the injectors and now questioning myself, i wired them up based on the firing order of the engine, 1 and 8 4 and 3 6 and 5 7 and 2  again thanks for the help ahead of time!
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Andy
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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2013, 09:32:41 AM »

Hello!

Regarding the sensor in the distributor, yes you're totally right, there's mechanical slack and so on and that affects the ignition timing. I see it all the time on VL Commodores with the RB30 engine - they're getting old by now and the gears are all worn, and you have about 2 degrees of movement at the dizzy (if you pull off the rotor cap, you can feel about 2 degrees of backlash by moving the rotor), which means about 4 degrees of spark scatter on the crank (2 cam degrees = 4 crank degrees).

But I wasn't suggesting we use the distributor to tell the ECU where TDC is - I was thinking we use the missing tooth on the crank for the ECU to know where TDC is, and just use a single tooth in the distributor or on the camshaft to tell the ECU which half of the cycle we're on (eg is cylinder 1 doing its compression stroke or its exhaust stroke).

From what I can tell the firing order for your engine is 1, 8, 4, 3, 6, 5, 7, 2.

So the way you've paired them in 1&8, 4&3 etc is how we recommend doing it, and firing the injectors every 720 degrees. But to do this we really need a sensor on the cam as well.

The ignition outputs - are you using a single coil / dizzy or coils packs like LS1 coils?

If you're doing the LS1 coils or similar, then they need to be:

Ignition 1 output -> cylinders 1 & 6
Ignition 2 output -> cylinders 5 & 8
Ignition 3 output -> cylinders 4 & 7
Ignition 4 output -> cylinders 2 & 3

Confirming injection outputs:

Injector 1 output -> cylinders 1 & 8
Injector 2 output -> cylinders 4 & 3
Injector 3 output -> cylinders 5 & 6
Injector 4 output -> cylinders 2 & 7

If you can set up the cam sensor so it triggers once on cylinder 1 exhaust stroke, somewhere between 90 and 0 degrees BTDC, then you can set it up with the settings I said before and then you'll have the injectors sequentialised with the intake strokes, which will be better for throttle response.

Injection mode = "Half speed sequential", injector current = 1.9A
Ignition mode = "Sequential 4", falling edge (assuming you're running LS1 coils)
Dwell time for LS1 coils is about 3500 Ás.

Thanks!
Andy
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280z28
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Posts: 6


« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2013, 11:59:49 AM »

Thanks Andy, great news i didn't realize that the camshaft position did not have to be precise like the crankshaft, makes sense having it just for the information on whether or not the cylinder is on the compression stroke or not. I am running a standard msd distributor with a msd digital 6 plus box with a single external coil.
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Andy
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2013, 05:44:48 PM »

Hi, yes, that's the way most of the modern EFI cars do it actually, they have a missing tooth trigger on the crankshaft, and then they have a pickup on the intake cam - and because it has variable valve timing the trigger angle of the cam sensor moves back and forward by say 40 degrees! So that tells the ECU the angle of the camshaft as well as whether we're on the compression / exhaust stroke.

If you're using the 6AL, the trigger input for that is intended to be driven by another ignition output (or a set of points LOL). We've tried driving that with the normal output of the ECU (which is intended to drive a separate ignitor) and it doesn't have enough current to drive the 6AL directly because they need so much more current than a normal ignitor (eg a factory / OEM style - or even the M&W CDI) - so you should connect one of our dumb single channel ignitors (3-wire) (or someone else's - I'm not trying to sell you stuff, just trying to make it easier) between the ECU ignition output and the 6AL input.

Thanks!
Andy
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280z28
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Posts: 6


« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2013, 07:09:50 AM »

Thanks Andy, I'm still a little confused, the msd box used to be triggered by the 2 wire magnetic sensor in the distributor, is the ecu not able to be setup to do a similar task? if not i will purchase the igniter, do you know any other brands of the top of your head? i would purchase yours but im in Washington state US and don't really want to wait on shipping, eager to get this thing started
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Andy
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2013, 09:26:01 AM »

Hi, the idea is that you trigger the MSD box from the Adaptronic ECU, so that you can tune the ignition timing in the ECU.

All you really need is a NPN transistor.

Connect the emitter to ground, connect the base to the ECU output, and the collector to the input on the 6AL.

Lots of types will work fine - I'd probably say to get something with about 500 mA collector current or more though.

Generally bigger ones are easier to make robust though because they have thicker wires on them.

Eg BDX53C, BD649, etc. http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/BDX53C/BDX53C-ND/965855

If you use one of those, they have the datasheet on the link I just sent which tells you which pin is which, but reading left to right (when the tranny is arranged so that you can read the markings on it), it's

Base (to ECU)
Collector (to 6AL)
Emitter (to ground)

The metal tab at the back is connected to the collector, so don't mount it to the body of the car or anything - solder wires to the three pins at the bottom and put the whole thing in a 16mm or 10mm (not sure the best size) tube of heatshrink so nothing can move.

Cheers!
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280z28
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Posts: 6


« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2013, 01:10:45 PM »

Hey Andy im back. I am trying to simplify the setup and remove the msd box as it is basically not even needed. To trigger my external coil could i just run an 8 pin gm ignition control module? I have been looking at the schematics but am not certain on how to wire it correctly to be triggered by the ecu. Here is a diagram
  http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.civilianjeep.info/Ignition/MiscHEI/HEI7PinModule01.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/ignition-sytem-howell-tbi-1062727/&h=621&w=899&sz=78&tbnid=M3kg094i7fghcM:&tbnh=91&tbnw=132&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgm%2B8%2Bpin%2Bwiring%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=gm+8+pin+wiring&usg=__y2sIjRPUzF-GuDQcCPCOJX0Scyo=&docid=rQrkxJc-GizF3M&sa=X&ei=7AoDUqLfCYi6qQHO-YDoDg&ved=0CEMQ9QEwBQ&dur=253
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280z28
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Posts: 6


« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2013, 06:27:11 PM »

or can i simply run the transistor like you mentioned above and trigger the coil? Either way let me know. Thanks in advance.
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Andy
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Posts: 4329


« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2013, 06:36:45 PM »

Hello, I'd say don't use that one, the GM and Ford modules do funny things, they're smart and they do timing internally.

I'd say use one of our dumb ignitor modules - they're easy to set up. 3 wires - ECU input, ignition coil negative and ground.

You can get them from Turbosource in the US: http://www.turbosource.com

Otherwise any dumb ignitor will work - I'd just advise against the GM and Ford ones because they're not dumb ignitors and they expect funny signals.

Thanks!
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